Malcolm Gladwell is angry, and he wants you to know why.
That's not to say that the bestselling author walks around in a rage all day — he's actually quite collected and soft-spoken most of the time, and ready to make a joke. But in his new hit podcast "Revisionist History," he explores certain topics in a way that readers of his books "The Tipping Point" and "Outliers" may find surprising.
Take, for example, the way he devotes three episodes to ways he considers the United States' education system is failing low-income students. To him, it's a subject worthy of nothing less than moral outrage.
We recently sat down with Gladwell to discuss what he wants to achieve with his podcast — which he confirmed has been approved for a second season — and how his worldview has evolved since the massive success of "The Tipping Point" launched him into pop culture 16 years ago.
We also discussed two of the biggest stories in America today, the presidential election and the public's relationship with the police.
When he got mad about a perceived injustice he was talking about, he'd raise his voice and throw up his hands, but often before cracking a smile, enjoying the energy of the discussion.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Richard Feloni: With "Revisionist History," what are you finding that you can do with the podcast medium that you can't do with a book?
Malcolm Gladwell: There's an immediacy to it. I went on my Twitter this morning. The latest episode dropped last night at midnight and by 7:30 a.m. this morning there's already a long stream of people commenting on it on Twitter. That's very different from a book, which takes a long time to kind of gain traction.
Also, there's more freedom in the medium, more freedom to use emotion, to be outraged. A lot of these episodes are angry — or even funny — in a way that my books are rarely. My podcast unleashes my id.
Feloni: There are recurring topics that you keep coming back to in your career and that you have really strong feelings about. How do you pick your battles?
Gladwell: When it comes to battle picking, you ask yourself two questions: What is something that not enough people are talking about, and what is something that I believe I have something unique to say about?
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So the battles I've chosen are not the most important ones facing humanity. There are lots of issues more important than where billionaires donate their money, to use the example I discuss in the latest episode of the podcast. But I do think it's something we don't talk about enough, and I think that after 15 years of writing books and 20 years at The New Yorker, I now have a kind of platform that allows me to be heard when I sound off on these subjects. And I think it would be a crime not to use that platform.
And I think as a Canadian I do have something unique to say about America's educational system, which to an outsider is completely absurd. I mean, it's so nuts, that you kind of have to be from a different place to sort of speak to its inherent absurdity.
So I chose to dedicate three episodes of "Revisionist History" to what's wrong with the American educational system because it fits my two criteria for battles.
I like to go back and forth between my tried and true hobby horses and new things. I don't want to be like the angry old guy in the corner who is always ranting and raving about the same things — but I don't mind doing that just a little bit!
Feloni: You reach conclusions in your work in a way that prompts your audience to either do something or see the world in a different light. Do you find that always shaping these theses affects how you live your own life?
Gladwell: Since becoming a journalist, each time I engage with subjects I become more radicalized.
If you met me as a 21 year old, I was actually conservative. And I would describe my politics back then as quite complacent. I am now substantially to the left of my 21-year-old self. But it's not so much about political positioning as it is that I'm now substantially more outspoken than I was back then.
Writing about these various things has made me a little bit angrier, and it's certainly fueled my passion about things.
Feloni: Can you give me an instance where a certain topic has made you angrier?
Gladwell: I did a piece for The New Yorker in 2009 about concussions in football, and I am a serious football fan. I had watched football for 25 years without ever entertaining the notion that I was morally complicit in what the game was doing to people. And then I wrote that article, which made me think about, "Well, wait a minute. What does it mean for me to sit and watch and give my implicit consent to the economic enterprise that is football when the game itself is harming a huge number of its participants?" That's a very uncomfortable thought. It's not a thought that sports fans normally have to ask themselves.
I continue to watch football but now I'm conflicted about it! I think I am in the process of divorcing myself from the game. It's hard because I'm a serious fan. But every year I watch less and every year I feel guiltier about the football that I do watch, and the delight I take in people harming themselves. It's just crazy.
There are a million other sports you can watch that do not involve the physical destruction of the participants, right? I actually find myself watching a lot more basketball and a lot less football. So I am finding more productive outlets for my sports fanaticism.
That's a small example. But also, I give money to things that I think are worthy causes, and my definition of a worthy cause has been profoundly shaped by a lot of my writing.
Feloni: There's a section in your book "David and Goliath" where you mention that your views on affirmative action have evolved since you first publicly explored them in "Blink" eight years earlier. What's an idea commonly associated with you that your readers may be surprised to hear you no longer believe in?
Gladwell: In "Tipping Point," there's a chapter trying to explain the fall of crime in New York City. I talk quite positively about the broken windows theory [which states that cracking down on small crimes prevents larger crimes]. And that was written at a time, the late 1990s, where that idea was very much en vogue. I think that it had a place in New York's transformation, but I do think that in New York, and other places as well, that idea was taken too far. It led to a kind of punitive policing, which I think has clearly become a big problem.
By "David and Goliath," published three years ago, I was talking about the opposite, about a woman in the NYPD who has had extraordinary results in reducing juvenile crime rates in Brownsville, Brooklyn by reaching out to the community, building relationships with the families of young offenders, and winning them over.
That's a case where my views have evolved substantially, and I hope that people don't take that chapter in "The Tipping Point" too seriously, because I just don't think it's relevant to 2016.
Feloni: I would assume that these ideas about the relationship between authority and the people it is intended to protect has been front of mind when we have a week of violence in Minneapolis, Baton Rouge, and Dallas.
Gladwell: A theme of "David and Goliath" is this idea of legitimacy, that civil societies work when the citizenry perceives their governing institutions to be legitimate, and that is based on three principles: fairness — that everyone is treated the same; transparency — that you know exactly what the consequences of certain actions are; and responsiveness — when you feel that you can stand up and complain and that you will be heard.
What the police do doesn't work unless the population believes in what the police are doing and believes in the legitimacy of the institution of the police force.
So the first task of a police force is not to fight crime and enforce the law. It is to establish legitimacy with the law-abiding citizenry and then fight crime and enforce the law. I think that's the issue.
When we look at the events in Ferguson and those that follow, the sad fact is that in many places in this country, the police have lost their legitimacy. They're no longer perceived to be transparent, predictable, open, and listening to the population, particularly in the African-American community.
At the same time, I think it's important to understand that we are talking about a small percentage of the police in this country and the populations in this country. By and large I think the policing of this country is done in a really good way. I think that we have a lot to be proud of, but I think we've gone awry a bit in the last couple of years.
The militarization of police, and the particular defensiveness of the police has led to these really troubling incidents and I don't think it's a trivial issue. I think that restoring the legitimacy of law enforcement has got to be one of the single most important tasks facing the country.
Feloni: From what you've seen and researchers you've spoken with, what are some things you think could be done to restore legitimacy?
Gladwell: One of the things I think the police have to do is to stop behaving like armies. There's a really brilliant writer named Radley Balkowho's been writing a lot about this.
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